Hello, this is Peter Levesque. Welcome to Episode Two of the Knowledge Exchange Podcast. This podcast series is a product generously supported by the Canadian Council on Learning – Canada's leading organization committed to improving learning across Canada and across all walks of life. I again want to thank the Associate Director of Knowledge Exchange, Mr. Daryl Rock and his great staff at CCL for all their efforts with this project to advance our understanding of effective knowledge exchange to improve the learning of Canadians. You can download this episode, as well as episode one or the eighteen future episodes in the series from my website at www.knowledgemobilization.net, or from iTunes directly, just search for KM podcast. Alternatively go to knowledgeexchange.podomatic.com. Transcripts and French language translations of these transcripts will be available shortly. The conversation that you're about to hear, took place in downtown Vancouver on Wednesday, March 14th, 2007 at the Hampton Inn with Sean Muir, Executive Director of the Healthy Aboriginal Network based in Vancouver. As you can tell from the background noise there was a lot going on in the quiet corner that we found. Although I tried to clean up some of this during the editing process, trucks and buses are just part of our urban landscape. The first time that I met Sean, I was impressed with his passion and considered perspective in dealing with difficult issues. I was very impressed with the results he was obtaining with a simple product, a comic book on suicide prevention. This knowledge exchange tool is an example of how innovation doesn't always come with all the bells and whistles but sometimes in using a tool that we know well in a different way. In this podcast you will hear Sean talk about youth engagement, using storytelling, that the content can be serious even if the format doesn't look serious. Sean will talk about the challenges of evaluating innovation and new uses for things that we think we know well. Sean shares his challenges of working across silos, of making sure that aboriginal voices are included in everything that they do, and through all of this I can hear his hopefulness that others will begin to look at the old problems in new ways and that we will come to solutions together. It was a privilege to talk to Sean and I hope you enjoy listening as much as I did.
Peter – All I'm sitting here in the Hampton Inn in Vancouver with Sean Muir. Sean, why don't you introduce yourself – tell us a little bit about what you do and the organization that you run. Sean Muir – I work for the Healthy Aboriginal Network. We do non-profit promotion about aboriginal health, literacy and wellness. Essentially we create comics on health and social issues for youth and animated shorts as well.
Peter – How long have you been doing this?
Sean Muir – Ah, I guess since January 2005.
Peter – Tell us a little bit about the comic book project because that's really the project that peaked my interest. Sean Muir - It started off I guess, a couple of years ago when was a fund out asking for innovative health promotion ideas and initially and I wanted to use video or television or computer or something, but it was very expensive and so I had an idea, a memory – so much as a memory as a kid on reading comic books. And I remember reading comics, so we'd read together, but this one kid always finished much quicker than I did, so I asked him “like how do you read so fast” and he said “ well I don't. I look at the pictures and get the idea of what's going on”. And I remember that kid in school - he was a terrible reader - he had low literacy.
I just, more of a lark then anything else, sent out this proposal to create a comic on the health issues - on the issues that youth thought were important.
Peter – So how did you find out what youth thought was important?
Sean Muir - I simply asked them.
Peter – You asked them?
Sean Muir – Ya, I know, it seems so silly but youth are rarely asked what their opinion is on things; they are mostly told.
Peter – Right.
Sean Muir – And so it's amazing if you ask a youth a question…or ask for their input - more of their input. “We're going to deliver this to you” – whether it's a program or whether it's…it doesn't matter what it is “how do you want it delivered to you?” It's amazing what they'll tell you. Peter – Various organizations have described knowledge exchange as bringing people and evidence together to influence behavior. How do comic books influence behavior?
Sean Muir – I think that whenever you have a resource that youth like, I think that you've got…there's a much higher chance of having buy-in. If you ask any parent, like how many times has their kid seen Shrek or any other animated shorts? They'll say, in a lot of cases, dozens – right? Kids love it. I think…I mean…and that's how you teach kids, is in school - there's repetition. Algebra isn't taught solely once and moved on; it's gone over and over and over. Peter – So they read these comic books over and over and over again?
Sean Muir - Yep Peter – So how do you design the comic book to make sure that what's included in it is good evidence? Sean Muir – Well, I think to get repetition or increased, or more exposures I guess….is it's got to be good content. Peter – Right.
Sean Muir – First of all, more of this stuff is story based, it's not suicide this, and suicide that, or diabetes this, and diabetes that. It's...it's…we create a story and so that's how we get buy-in from youth. Peter – So why don't you tell me a little bit of a story around suicide - that's an issue that has interested me for a while and I'm astounded by the levels of suicidality in aboriginal populations in Canada, even when you just compare them to the rest of the population. So what's the story in the comic book around suicide? Sean Muir – The story is about a First Nation's youth that has difficulty in school - he's picked on, he's not understood by his teacher, he's socially isolated, and one day he just find's it's too much and he just has an awful, terrible day and he considers taking his life. And an elder comes in and intervenes…on his…with him and tells him a story and he's transported to this mystical world where these two spirits, Wesakecak and Wihtiko, fight over his fate. And in the end Kyle ends up standing up for himself and saying “I don't want to die, I don't believe in the things you say about me, you don't have any power over me. I don't want to die”. And he defeats the evil beast…evil spirits. And I think that…I mean that part is not necessarily so relatable, but certainly the kids - the fantasy part of it - they love the fantasy part of it. But the part that's relatable, when you get the real buy-in, is up front… Peter - Right. Sean Muir - …when you tell the kids, “hey school is tuff – school is hard, you know, life is tough at that age” and they find it really relatable.
Peter – So you've had great success with this particular one. How many of these have you produced?
Sean Muir – Forty three thousand so far have been sold so across Canada to date.
Peter – And that compares to something like Spiderman?
Sean Muir - I think they do like fifty thousand.
Peter – So you're right up there in terms of the impact. What about the story? Tell us a story that…not about the story of the comic book but the story of how it's being used? Sean Muir – We…I think that the comic is being used more as an icebreaker in a lot of cases - to get youth talking about suicide prevention or feelings. I've been to suicide prevention conferences and when people ask youth “hey, what do you think about suicide?” well they just shut right down; the wall goes right up. But if you can show them a video, which kind of – they find relatable - they like, they're interested, they are much more likely to start talking about it or read a comic that they like. We hear from parents who say that their kids won't read anything but they'll…their kids will read that comic over and over again. I know that schoolteachers are using them for having their students write book reports – kids with low literacy who can't get through a novel. Peter – So it's more that just the heath promotion? Sean Muir – Oh ya.
Peter - In talking with the Canadian Council on Learning, I mean they are concerned with life-long learning and of creating a context that allows for ongoing learning. Do you see that the learning outcomes for youth will change because of this comic book?
Sean Muir – I would hope so. I think that it's mostly teenagers who are reading our comics. But I certainly get a lot more people who… I get a lot of people who are in their 20s and 30s and even 40s, who say that you know, “I've read comics as a kid and I just love the book”. Peter – So what…comic books aren't seen as serious. Sean Muir – I know.
Peter - They're seen as…they're kids stuff…but this is pretty serious stuff. I mean, the content…I've read them – the content is serious and it's grounded and it's put into a way that people can understand. What would you say to an agency or organization that says that comic books aren't serious? Sean Muir – Well it depends on the content. I mean, they are not meant to be funny - they're not ha-ha, they're not Archie's, they're not…I mean they're not….it's…you can tell a story…you can tell a serious story and still have elements of humor in there. You can still have health elements, learning elements - it's about telling a story and then about imbedding bits of information in the story so it's not overpowering; it's more subtle. Peter – So you're not the cartoonist? Sean Muir – No Peter – So maybe for someone…for an agency or organization that's listening to this that would think about producing a comic book around health matter, or an education matter, or public safety mater; what's the process that you went through in order produce something like this? Maybe talk a little about the challenges of getting the kind of broad distribution that you've had? Sean Muir – The first challenge is always finding the money, so we always do that first. Once you have the money, then we need a story. And we typically just ask the Funder, “like point us in a direction - give us a couple of ideas of what you want covered”. We don't want them to say here's twenty things I want covered, because…well… then you might as well create a pamphlet if there's twenty things you want covered, or brochure. So they'll push us in a certain direction. And then we'll find a …we have a stable of artists and storytellers that we deal with across Canada – there's about maybe seven or eight across Canada we deal with. And so we'll point them in a direction - create a story with this idea in mind. So they'll tell a story and sometimes we'll have a script at the end of that. Sometimes some of the artists we use aren't…well they're not writers but they're storytellers and so maybe they…they draw it out pictorially first. Peter – Right.
Sean Muir – One of our guys does that. He can't write for anything but he tells a hell of a story and if he draws it out in a comic book frame, then it's fantastic. Peter – Right.
Sean Muir – So we'll create the storyboard. We've tried in the past to run those scripts pass youth focus groups and health professional focus groups and well, no one has the time or the interest to read a nine page, single-spaced manuscript. They just can't be bothered. So what I found out years ago is that I had to create something visually – I had to create something that they could play at home on their DVD player or in the computer at work and so we take those...we take the story, we turn it into a black and white story board – of just pencil sketches, we have the artist tell the story, and we pan through each individual shot - we pan in and out - and side to side – we give it motion. Essentially we create a little animated short. It's actually called an ‘Animatic'. Sean Muir - And then we have no problems getting youth to watch or focus – to watch this video and answer questions. So….
Peter – So you actually take your animatic to youth and you run it through a focus group with them?
Sean Muir – Yes.
Peter – And, they actually sit through this?
Sean Muir – Oh ya.
Peter – Really?
Sean Muir – Oh ya.
Twelve minutes, twenty-five minutes, we've done both. I can go into a room where kids are jumping off the walls, going bananas and you turn on the T.V. and you start the story and they hear the voice, and they see the images, and that's it, they're locked. Peter – Right.
What sort of response do you get from them? I mean you know, they're watching it but what's the conversation after they've seen it? What sort of comments are they providing back to you?
Sean Muir – Well, we first tell them…like you know, “how often do adults ask you your opinion on something”. We sort of frame it, in that, “we're looking to get your opinion. This is something…this is just a rough draft of a comic book – we need your opinion to finish it off. Are the characters authentic? Is the language authentic? Does this happen? What do you find relatable? Do you know anyone that's… Do you have any friends that are like this? Has this ever happened to you?” And it's amazing the questions that they'll answer. Peter – One of the… We've had this conversation before about evaluating the outcome or the effectiveness of using comic books. What sort of things are you thinking about now in terms of making sure that the way that you're going about doing this and the content and the images that you put forward are the best possible content and images? What sort of …what are you doing to support that process now?
Sean Muir – Our first comic that is being evaluated is our CCL comic - the staying-in-school comic book – the National Association of Friendship Centres is doing that. We just went through a three city tour; Vancouver, Thunder Bay and Winnipeg and did the focus groups and we're waiting for the report - it should come out in the next couple of weeks. We'll color the comic, get it ready, and finish it off and then CCL will have an evaluation. What the evaluation is going to look like, I'm not entirely sure. Peter –. …but there is this entire process - this ongoing conversation in many different places to make sure, that as a tool, this kind of form of knowledge exchange is reaching the audience in the most effective way?
Sean Muir – Ya. I think the idea is ‘what did youth glean from the video'? Whether they actually stayed in school longer? I mean that's. …you're talking about several years and you'd have to test, thousands of kids. I think that would be quite difficult, but what did the comic teach the kids? What did they glean from it? I think that could be measured for sure.
